I have this friend. He is now training to be a Presbyterian Minister. He's a good friend of mine. Here's what happened when a late night msn chat turned a rather theological/philosophical....
And of course his name isn't Minister, I changed it to protect his anonymity.
Minister says:
Lonely is a state which one must learn to accept
Sophie says:
Is that the lesson you're going to teach me?
Sophie says:
What a downer sermon
Sophie says:
jeez
Minister says:
believe me, when you tell people you are studying to become a minister
Minister says:
you have to deal with lonely
Sophie says:
really? people can be so closed-minded
Minister says:
Yup
Minister says:
but it's ok
Sophie says:
talking about it is nice though
Minister says:
You should have heard my sermon on Sunday
Sophie says:
what was it about?
Minister says:
it was about making tough choices
Minister says:
title was
Minister says:
Be Alert
Minister says:
(as in Allen)
Sophie says:
*is alert*
Sophie says:
Woody Allen?
Minister says:
yaar
Sophie says:
i heart woody
Minister says:
ANYWAY
Minister says:
I'll bet you do, girl
Sophie says:
so how do you make a tough choice?
Minister says:
Through prayer and contemplation
Sophie says:
how does the decision come about?
Sophie says:
and who do i pray to?
Sophie says:
if i pray, right, and i'm just doing it because you told me to, will god still hear me? or will he ignore me because i don't believe in him?
Sophie says:
hello? are you ignoring me because i don't believe in you?
Minister says:
whom, please
Minister says:
(English students!)
Minister says:
To God
Sophie says:
(who is accepted in spoken english as a colloquialism)
Minister says:
Not in my world
Sophie says:
okay, so anyway, answer my question
Minister says:
And neither is the split infinitive
Minister says:
I shall go boldly
Sophie says:
is that something up with which you shall not put?
Minister says:
Yaar
Sophie says:
stop evading the question!
Minister says:
Which one?
Minister says:
To whom should you pray?
Sophie says:
if i pray, right, and i'm just doing it because you told me to, will god still hear me? or will he ignore me because i don't believe in him
Minister says:
Well, that question is loaded, and well you know it
Minister says:
IF you choose to pray
Minister says:
you should pray because YOU fell you need/want/wish/are compelled to do so
Minister says:
NOT because I tell you to
Minister says:
or anybody else
Sophie says:
of course, that is logical. but what if i'm doing it as a pascal's wager kind of thing. i don't believe in it, but hey, give it a go in case it's true
Minister says:
Good question: perhaps I am not the right person to ask, because
Minister says:
like Paul
Minister says:
(as in writer of Romans/Corinthians etc)
Sophie says:
i know!
Minister says:
I am PERSUADED that there is no alternative
Minister says:
You see: the trouble is, we tend to pray (eg HELP) when things go belly-up
Minister says:
always assuming that we know what the right thing is
Minister says:
BUT
Minister says:
and this is the difficult bit
Minister says:
actually, often the 'right' thing is not the thing we want, but rather the thing which happens
Sophie says:
right according to?
Minister says:
only we only know this is the case when we reflect
Minister says:
right according to how life turns out
Minister says:
(with BIG squeezy, huggy emphasis on life!)
Sophie says:
not according to what god wants?
Minister says:
And cheese
Minister says:
Oh dear:
Minister says:
Mis understanding of the idea of God, perhaps
Sophie says:
well isn't everyone's understanding of god different?
Minister says:
Yes and no
Minister says:
Now don't interrupt!
Sophie says:
he gave us commandments didn't he? surely he has a view of what is right and wrong?
Sophie says:
sorry
Minister says:
ok
Sophie says:
carry on
Minister says:
Lost thread now
Minister says:
ermmmmmmmmmmmm
Minister says:
oh yes
Minister says:
and three pints of wine
Minister says:
oooops
Minister says:
sorry
Minister says:
wrong notes
Sophie says:
pint glass eh?
Sophie says:
classy
Minister says:
Isaiah 45:7...
Sophie says:
(i'd prefer your words)
Minister says:
....I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.
Sophie says:
what a guy!
Minister says:
Everything that is exists within God
Minister says:
Nothing can eclipse or diminish or control or overpower God
Minister says:
If my knee hurts, I can ask for strength to deal with it, but the HURT exists as much within God as I do
Minister says:
I may not understand WHY it hurts
Minister says:
(I don't)
Minister says:
but I must learn to exist WITH it
Sophie says:
yes, so what is this to do with god having an idea of what is moral/right and whether it happens. because if nothing controls or overpowers him (eg fate) then surely it's all up to him?
Minister says:
You clearly need some RS lessons!
Minister says:
Moral/right etc etc: human constructs
Minister says:
GOD is right
Minister says:
punkt
Minister says:
BUT
Minister says:
I cannot begin to comprehend God
Minister says:
Over centuries people have recorded their experiences to try and gain some kind of access to God, but it is at best through a glass darkly
Minister says:
(that's Paul)
Minister says:
!!!!!!!
Minister says:
BUT
Sophie says:
okay, so if there's this huge distance why does he exist to you?
Sophie says:
(sorry)
Minister says:
Because God does exist to me.
Minister says:
At the darkest times
Minister says:
(and there have been many)
Minister says:
God has been there
Minister says:
even though I have denied it
Minister says:
(AND i HAVE......VEHEMENTLY)
Minister says:
I feel it, then know it....if that makes sense
Sophie says:
That does make sense
Sophie says:
totally
Sophie says:
that's how I used to feel, then I realised that it was the atmosphere of the church, the music, it made me feel stuff
Minister says:
And why couldn’t that be God?
Sophie says:
why should it be?
Minister says:
BIG question: why try to limit God to what suits us at the moment?
Sophie says:
is that what you think i'm doing?
Minister says:
It's what we all do most of the time
Sophie says:
is it?
Sophie says:
but that's assuming god is an entity in everyone's lives. which isn't true
You have just sent a nudge.
Sophie says:
stop looking in the bible for quotes!
Minister says:
and as poor old Job found out, it's not for us to demand answers
Sophie says:
my nickname as a child was jobby
Sophie says:
...
Sophie says:
we should question though, surely!?
Minister says:
It is sufficient for us to accept that God IS, and that everything is held within that
Minister says:
Question, yes
Minister says:
But it is the slant of the question..........
Minister says:
If someone said "Sleep with me or I won't belive that you love me"
Minister says:
That is conditional love, yes??
Minister just sent you a nudge.
Sophie says:
yeh, that's just .... emotional blackmail
Minister says:
exactly
Minister says:
Now (and this is not a cheap get out)
Minister says:
read the New Testament!
Minister says:
And the Old!
Minister says:
God is love, created the universe in love, and, although the OT is full of blood and guts stuff, it is
Minister says:
or I believe...
Minister says:
must be read in the light of the NT
Minister says:
ie: God loved the world into existence
Minister says:
and continues to love it
Minister says:
BUT
Minister says:
free will allow me to make a choice
Sophie says:
what of the noah story then?
Minister says:
when someone uses that particular argument
Minister says:
(OT darlin, and READ it, in light of NT)
Minister says:
re love
Sophie says:
i've read quite a lot of it
Minister says:
towards me, it took a while until I got what was going on
Sophie says:
i did go to church youth group y'know
Minister says:
But where is YOUR relationship with God?
Sophie says:
I don't have one
Minister says:
Why not?
Sophie says:
Same reason you do. It's my belief
Minister says:
THAT is NOT an answer!
Sophie says:
Okay
Sophie says:
ready?
Minister says:
Because life has shat on you?
Sophie says:
No! Life is okay, highs and lows, but okay
Minister says:
go for it
Minister says:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Sophie says:
because it's based on myths and there are so many different religions believing similar and opposite things, and i believe people have religion as comfort AND
Sophie says:
i believe in the dinosaurs and evolution
Sophie says:
let me find a quote that sums me up (from a theist)
Minister says:
So do I
Minister just sent you a nudge.
Sophie says:
“When I see the blind and wretched state of man, when i survey the whole universe in its dumbness and man left to himself with no light, as though lost in this corner of the universe, without knowing who put him there, what he has come to do, what will become of him when he dies, incapable of knowing anything, I am moved to terror, like a man transported in his sleep to some terrifying desert island, who wakes up quite lost with no means of escape. Then I marvel that so wretched a state does not drive people to despair.”
Sophie says:
Religion and God is a way to put these fears aside, If you believe in that you are slightly more free from existential dread
Sophie says:
As a person who doesn't believe in that, i'm astounded by the world, i feel lost, alone, and scared.
Sophie says:
But what can I do, pretend to believe? I just don't.
Minister says:
I'll share something:
Minister says:
Religion is a creation of man
Minister says:
God is WAY outside that
Minister says:
I am just as scared, unhappy, confused and lonely as the next person........
Minister says:
but I am not nailed up on a couple of pieces of wood for telling people to live lives for the benefit of all
Minister says:
for teaching about love
Minister says:
and self-sacrifice
Minister says:
and respect
Sophie says:
yes yes, so let me ask you this, is the bible stories, metaphors, fact, or a mixture. To you...
Minister says:
The Bible containes truths about life/existence etc
Minister says:
but these truths need to be teased out
Minister says:
therefore prayer and contemplation are an essential part
Minister says:
there is history/experience/ faith/metaphor/story in the collection of books which make up the Bible
Sophie says:
ok, so. creationism?
Minister says:
stupid
Sophie says:
good, ok. i'd like to ask, prayer and contemplation to tease the truths about existence from the bible....
Sophie says:
how is this different from contemplating on any other writings from men, philosophers, and so on
Minister says:
In many ways it is not
Minister says:
the major difference is perhaps linguistic
Minister says:
BUT
Minister says:
The Greek Philosophers looked for the ONE force
Minister says:
for ME this one force is God
Minister says:
But God is bigger than I shall ever comprehend
Minister says:
but I shall love the journey of discovery
Sophie says:
Part of me is jealous
Minister says:
Why?
Sophie says:
I don't know.
Minister says:
Just let go!
Sophie says:
Of what?
Minister says:
The need to KNOW
Minister says:
Just be!
Sophie says:
I have a curious mind (which god gave me?)
Minister says:
Indeed
Minister says:
Watch Dogma!
Minister says:
Then Bruce Almighty
Minister says:
Then read the book of Job...carefully!
Minister says:
And now I must go as I have to be in college at 9!
Sophie says:
Okay, I've done the first two, I'll look at the third tonight.
Minister says:
You'll need more than an evening!
Sophie says:
I know, I meant start
Sophie says:
git
Minister says:
Happy reading
